"All woods sound the same" - is this a new song?

[dboomer]

That only applies to systems where all upper harmonics are multiples of the fundamental. It does not apply to systems with plural frequencies that are not simple multiples.

I can’t find that definition anywhere. Can you cite an example?

 

[dboomer]

A drum has more in common with playing a chord than playing a single note. With the guitar string example, imagine you strum the E, A, and D strings all together. Recorded, it looks like one waveform. Is E “the fundamental”? Not the fundamental of the A or D strings!

The timbre/pitch of a drum, like every other instrument, is a complex mixture of harmonics (and/or inharmonics). But there is only one fundimental. It's easy to break the complex waveform down into individual sine waves with a Fourier Transform.

 

[bongomania]

I’ll back away from my argument about the word “fundamental”, as I don’t have a source handy (just what I learned in school). This wiki article explains why comparisons to a single guitar string or other simple pitch source are inaccurate:

Unpitched percussion instrument - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

“The sound of a freely resonating membrane such as a drum head, for example, contains strong overtones at irrational ratios to its fundamental, unlike a vibrating string whose overtones are at simple whole-number ratios to the fundamental.”
Those strong overtones (which I was describing as multiple fundamentals) not only exist for each head independently, they change in resonance between the two heads, and in combination with the shell. When we tune a drum, we are tuning an interrelated system. Change the tuning of one head by an exact half step, you change the output of the system by some other amount (with resonance at a different primary frequency), not by an exact half step.

 

[jb78]

The problem with this thread is that people are answering two very different questions:

1) Is there literally/scientifically a difference between the sound of different woods? Yes, sure, of course.

2) Is there more than a marginal difference in how various woods sound and if so, is it impactful to music we play? The consensus seems to be that sometimes there is, but more often it’s irrelevant because of so many other factors.

 

[hsosdrum]

The DCP comparison video of the various Noble & Cooley drums illustrates that "tuning" a drum exclusively with a mechanical device like a TuneBot may not produce a musically pleasing result. Most (if not all) of the drums in that video are what I would consider to be "out of tune", regardless of the reading on the mechanical device that was used by DCP to tune them. A drummer who knows his $hit about tuning could have made all of those drums sound much more alike simply by adjusting their tuning by ear.

Tuning/mis-tuning aside, I think the test would have been more instructive if they had played at various volume levels and various levels of musical complexity. A minute of 4/4 backbeat with some ghost notes thrown in does NOT tell a listener nearly enough about the inherent sound of a snare drum.

Nonetheless, I could hear subtle differences among the various drums that I'm sure were due to the shell material, but none of those differences would make me feel "A-ha, THAT"S the drum I want to spend big bucks on." (My personal preference was for the Walnut shell, followed closely by the Oak, which was a surprise.)

 

[dboomer]

I’ll back away from my argument about the word “fundamental”, as I don’t have a source handy (just what I learned in school). This wiki article explains why comparisons to a single guitar string or other simple pitch source are inaccurate:

No, it explains how they differ harmonically. Harmonics are always some multiple of the fundamental. They may (as in the case of a two headed drum) are not rational numbers, but they are indeed multiples.

But I fail to see how this is difficult to understand.

If you want to demonstrate the difference the wooden shell makes when every other mechanical piece is the same. If you don’t start with the fundamental pitch the same for all drums then how can you conclude it it the wood and not the difference in the pitch and the inharmonic overtones (as pointed out in the wiki piece above)? The wiki piece clearly calls out that the inharmonic nature of the overtones means when the fundamental pitch of the drum varies the harmonics do not evenly shift along with it. If you were to electronically shift the pitch (over a half step as the drums in the video are) the harmonics would shift as rational numbers. If you do it with a tuning key they do not shift rationally. BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

[drichardbailey]

Tension is not pitch, Pitch is not tension.

Tunebots et al would work assuming the goal is maximum sustain. Oh, and the shell, head, hoop, tension rods, lug receiver and mounting holes for the hardware have to be perfect.








Then yeah, sure. Tune bot all day.

 

[SpinaDude]

Do guitarists have these discussions?

 

[Tornado]

Do guitarists have these discussions?

You'd better believe it, lol. Tone woods and whether whether they matter on electric guitars are a constant source of argument. They may have even more reason to question wood importance than we do, given the electric pickups.

 

[hsosdrum]

You'd better believe it, lol. Tone woods and whether whether they matter on electric guitars are a constant source of argument. They may have even more reason to question wood importance than we do, given the electric pickups.

They also argue about whether or not to tune using an electronic tuner or strictly by ear. A guitarist whom I greatly respect insists that the subtle tuning errors a player makes by ear are part of their unique style and sound, and that electronic tuners "smooth out" those differences. I tend to agree with him on this.

My problem with electronic drum tuners is that drummers rely on them too much, and quite simply, they don't work all that well (the opposite problem posed by electronic guitar tuning devices), as clearly shown in the DCP comparison video of the Noble & Cooley drums. Those drums all sounded out-of-tune, something easily fixed with the application of a drum key and an experienced ear.

 

[bongomania]

But I fail to see how this is difficult to understand.

You seem quite determined not to see what I’m saying.

If you don’t start with the fundamental pitch the same for all drums then how can you conclude it it the wood and not the difference in the pitch and the inharmonic overtones (as pointed out in the wiki piece above)?

The testers say they tuned the heads exactly the same. The drums are clearly different in what pitch sounds most prominent. A couple other posters have said the drums sound “out of tune”, and should have been tuned by ear rather than by using a numerically identical measure of tuning. A drum is a system of interacting irrational harmonics.

The most likely answer then is that THE SHELL is what changed the perceived pitch. Therefore the only way to get the result you want would have been for the testers to tune every drum to the same total perceived pitch regardless of how dissimilar the head tunings might be to get there.

That’s valid, and it would be another interesting test. With all of them tuned by ear to the same perceived pitch, what other tone differences can be heard?

But that’s a completely different test than “let’s tune all the heads exactly the same and find out whether the drums sound different when there’s no variance in the heads.”

 

[troutstudio]

The problem with this thread is that people are answering two very different questions:

1) Is there literally/scientifically a difference between the sound of different woods? Yes, sure, of course.

2) Is there more than a marginal difference in how various woods sound and if so, is it impactful to music we play? The consensus seems to be that sometimes there is, but more often it’s irrelevant because of so many other factors.

That's a great summary for me. To my ears, birch and maple sound very different. I'm the one playing the drums, so it matters. I choose live kits based on the venue and the genre - not uncommon, I'm sure. I choose studio kits based on what I think will suit the track - or conversely, what might shake it up a bit. And that choice may affect how I play. If I start playing and think "should have brought the bigger kick" or "this snare is not cutting it here"; my playing might be affected. But it's just as likely that some punter will come up in the break and say "drums sound great". In the studio, I might be playing the kit and going through the same emotions as the gig, but playback (and perhaps a break overnight) may change my mind. The instrument we play is affected by its surroundings and has an impact on how we play it. It's this organic interaction that we seek to control by trying different woods or edges or design or heads. It's a natural process and discussion about it is good.

 

[dirtysicks]

That's a great summary for me. To my ears, birch and maple sound very different. I'm the one playing the drums, so it matters. I choose live kits based on the venue and the genre - not uncommon, I'm sure. I choose studio kits based on what I think will suit the track - or conversely, what might shake it up a bit. And that choice may affect how I play. If I start playing and think "should have brought the bigger kick" or "this snare is not cutting it here"; my playing might be affected. But it's just as likely that some punter will come up in the break and say "drums sound great". In the studio, I might be playing the kit and going through the same emotions as the gig, but playback (and perhaps a break overnight) may change my mind. The instrument we play is affected by its surroundings and has an impact on how we play it. It's this organic interaction that we seek to control by trying different woods or edges or design or heads. It's a natural process and discussion about it is good.

I agree.

 

[Markkuliini]

I hear a difference in pitch and so I ran the video through spectral analysis. The pitch of each drum is not the same. It varies a half step which is easy to hear.

I might be able to put end to this argument.
I ran the audio through Logic's EQ analyzer and concentrated on the 2 first low tunings (Oak and Beech), since the percieved pitch change is probably the most apparent there. I found the following.

-The fundamental note at around 165 stays almost the same. It maybe changes 1 or 2 Hz higher from Oak to Beech, but it's quite close. Sorry dboomer, but half step would require 10 Hz difference at that level. It's close enough for me. Check the pictures. First graph is Oak and second is Beech.

-BUT the next overtone series, the long singing tone already at around 225 Hz, is actually what makes us perceive the pitch. It has much more sustain and it's very dominating sound on a unmuffled drum. And that frequency changed from about 225 Hz to about 245 Hz when going from Oak to Beech. 20 Hz change! That's almost a whole step at that level. It's not very clear on the pictures, but it was easily verified when sweeping through frequencies with the EQ using narrow Q adjustment.
On pitched instruments the first overtones are not this close to the fundamental, and that is probably why we confuse this tone to the fundamental.

-I'm sorry to say that Dboomer's spectrum analysis was not accurate or deep enough. But to his defence, since the fundamental note raises up just a hair, that will also raise the first overtone series. But I really doubt that only 1-2 Hz raise would raise the first overtones by 20 Hz.
So I think that Beech's first overtones, where we perceive the pitch, are NATURALLY higher, and therefore it sounds like a higher pitched drum.

Conclusion based on analyzing 2 first samples: Snares tuned to same fundamental CAN sound like having a different pitches. The first overtone series is quite close to the fundamental note, it's loud and it has long sustain, and that makes us easily hear it as a fundamental pitch of the drum.

The video is good enough to be valid comparison.

 

[hsosdrum]

...[snip]...

The video is good enough to be valid comparison.

I must respectfully disagree.

Tuning two or more indefinitely-pitched instruments to the same fundamental pitch does NOT result in instruments that sound like they're at the same pitch. The inharmonic partials require additional tuning by ear to bring the instruments closer in perceived pitch, regardless of what some electro-mechanical device says about their fundamental pitches. If this additional tuning isn't done, the differences created by those partials are what we will hear — they will overwhelm the far more subtle differences in tonal quality imparted by the shell materials.

In short, the video is most surely NOT good enough to be valid comparison of the differences caused by the shell materials. What you're mostly hearing in the video are the different partials/harmonics/overtones caused by the tuning differences. Get rid of those (by ear) and you'll reveal the differences caused by the different shell materials.

Why do you think so many drummers find it so difficult to tune their drums to their own satisfaction? Because drummers must rely on their ears even after they spend $$ on a TuneBot or some other contraption.

P.S. The same is true for piano tuners — they do it by ear. If you tune a piano solely by relying on an electronic tuning device it'll be unplayable.

 

[Markkuliini]

I must respectfully disagree.

Tuning two or more indefinitely-pitched instruments to the same fundamental pitch does NOT result in instruments that sound like they're at the same pitch. The inharmonic partials require additional tuning by ear to bring the instruments closer in perceived pitch, regardless of what some electro-mechanical device says about their fundamental pitches. If this additional tuning isn't done, the differences created by those partials are what we will hear — they will overwhelm the far more subtle differences in tonal quality imparted by the shell materials.

In short, the video is most surely NOT good enough to be valid comparison of the differences caused by the shell materials. What you're mostly hearing in the video are the different partials/harmonics/overtones caused by the tuning differences. Get rid of those (by ear) and you'll reveal the differences caused by the different shell materials.

Why do you think so many drummers find it so difficult to tune their drums to their own satisfaction? Because drummers must rely on their ears even after they spend $$ on a TuneBot or some other contraption.

P.S. The same is true for piano tuners — they do it by ear. If you tune a piano solely by relying on an electronic tuning device it'll be unplayable.

You're talking about different thing, sort of the opposite what this video is doing. If you want a video where snares are tuned sounding the same, then please do one. But you cannot change the rules, so to speak.
Because DCP's video claims that's it's done by tuning the snares to the same fundamental pitch. And it's done so. That's what mean when I say it's valid.

I don't know how your can have a problem with the fact that they have done what they promised.

 

[hsosdrum]

You're talking about different thing, sort of the opposite what this video is doing. If you want a video where snares are tuned sounding the same, then please do one. But you cannot change the rules, so to speak.
Because DCP's video claims that's it's done by tuning the snares to the same fundamental pitch. And it's done so. I don't know how your can have a problem with that, when they have done what the promised.

If all they promised was that they tuned the drums to the same fundamental pitch that would be fine. But that promise carries with it the very strong implication that it's all that's required to eliminate all sonic variables except for the ones caused the shell materials, and that's just plain not true.

If you want the drums to sound like they're all at the same pitch you have to tune them by ear. That's the nature of an instrument with indefinite pitch. Ignoring that does a disservice to those who view the video and think they're hearing differences caused by different wood species. In fact, they're mostly hearing differences that have nothing at all to do with the different wood species.

 

[Markkuliini]

If all they promised was that they tuned the drums to the same fundamental pitch that would be fine. But that promise carries with it the very strong implication that it's all that's required to eliminate all sonic variables except for the ones caused the shell materials, and that's just plain not true.

If you want the drums to sound like they're all at the same pitch you have to tune them by ear. That's the nature of an instrument with indefinite pitch. Ignoring that does a disservice to those who view the video and think they're hearing differences caused by different wood species. In fact, they're mostly hearing differences that have nothing at all to do with the different wood species.

Did you read my analysis on the fundamental pitches on the video? It says the same thing. We agree on the pitch part. But we don't agree about the promises or "implications" you claim they make.

I don't think it's the video makers responsibility to explain everything to the viewers. They said the drums have the same fundamental, and they have, to a degree.
If you want different content, then your welcome to create it.

The point you're trying to make is swaying this conversation into the different direction, and that's all good, but I'm not following you there any longer.
The point I was trying to make on my analysis was quite different, so it's like to get back on that.

 

[hsosdrum]

Did you read my analysis on the fundamental pitches on the video? It says the same thing. We agree on the pitch part. But we don't agree about the promises or "implications" you claim they make.

I don't think it's the video makers responsibility to explain everything to the viewers. They said the drums have the same fundamental, and they have, to a degree.
If you want different content, then your welcome to create it.

Here's where you and I disagree. DCP runs a large and influential drum store with a widespread Internet presence. I am confident that the vast majority of drummers who viewed that video came away with the incorrect assumption that by tuning all the drums to the same fundamental pitch, DCP was eliminating all of the sonic variables except for the ones created by the different wood species used in the different shells. Otherwise, why bother to tune them all to the same fundamental pitch in the first place?

DCP owes it to their customers to tell the whole story, and that story is: Most of the differences we hear in that video are created by differences in perceived pitch, not by differences in shell materials. OR, they simply could have tuned the drums by ear to bring them to the same perceived pitch. Then the sonic differences in the video could be more accurately ascribed to the differences in shell materials.

I could always make my own videos, but I'm not in the business of selling drums.

 

[dboomer]

@Markkuliini Did you test all the drums or just the two you note in your post. What I measured was a range of between 161 and 167 Hz (nearly a half step) across the range of 6. I did not mean to imply a half step between each drum. Clearly some were closer than others.

In any event, I don’t understand how many have read it as some statement about drum tone. It is not. It is simply pointing out a faulty test procedure. If it were a test for shoes wouldn’t having them all be the same size at the start eliminate variables so that any differences observed could be judged for other reasons?