Flat top cymbals: will the do the required job???...

[elcid]

Ok, am in a aquandry of sorts...with the selection of the "right" ride cymbal for my church choir "gigs" that is...

This is what's going on: the church-owned drums that am using are an older Pearl set with which I have no real problems other than its 13" piccolo snare drum (I provide one of my own from amongst a modest stable of snares), but when it comes to its cymbals...well, that's another matter altogether; the kit was outfitted with rather small Sabian crashes and hats ("B8" or something to that effect)...and a non-descriptive, un-hammered, unlathed 20" ride that is so penetratingly pingy that just drives me nuts (its sonic thumbprint captured by near-field recordings with a Sony D-50 digital recorder is simply atrocious sounding!).
Add to that the venue's own acoustics--a very reververant field with hard reflective surfaces at every plane--and the darn thing becomes truly overwelming in short order (to my ears anyway)!
In an attempt to solve this dilema have tried a veriety of cymbals from my admitedly meager collection, a 22" Diril D-20 ride being about the most suitable in terms of overall balance, but it too has its own idiosincrasies; produces a bit more "wash" over the fundamental "ping" than I want for this particular application.
Anyway, experimenting with other rides the last couple of weeks have compelled me to use a late '60s Paiste 202 twenty-inch pie that belongs to my son; with a rather small bell and medium weight the combination is about what am after although is not quite there either, so my latest thinking has veered me towards the direction of flat top rides...Zildjian Ks in particular.

Can anyone from among my fellow DFO cognoceti tell me if such type of cymbal would provide me with what I want from a ride (clean and well defined--but not overbearing--"ping," with a minimum of dry--but "sweet"!--wash) for this particular application? Been contemplating the purchase of a used 20" flat top K pie, but before I buy it would like to hear comments from those who knows about cymbals far more than I do, so please fire away!...

-elcid

 

[pwc1141]

I am a fan of flat rides and have had a older Paiste 18", which I should have kept, a 20" Bosphorus Master series and now use a 21" Bosphorus Turk series.
They seem to suit my acoustic jazz settings and have great stick definition with little if any wash and provide a shimmering, slivery set of dark undertones that I like. Most flat rides have these characteristics but would differ in tonal quality, obviously. I would think that they would indeed suit your need but just which brand/series would suit your pocket and own ears is not my call. I like the Paiste sig series I have played on but there are many out there to try and fall and love with.

 

[slinginit]

Flats are nice and mellow with outstanding stick definition (but not pingy). Universally they're lower-volume cymbals and should suit your needs. I saw the Roy Haynes Quintet in 2005 and he plays a K 20" flat as his main ride. It drove the band but never overpowered.

 

[lossforgain]

I too was going to point you to Bosphorus, Frank. Go flat if you think you won't miss the bell, but I use my bell. Bosphorus bells in general are well-integrated and not that cutting, for instance my New Orleans ride works great in a setting like you describe because it's a little dry, with just enough wash, gets out of the way when I want it to, and the bell isn't cutting. I'd highly recommend one of those.

 

[Highroller]

Can't comment on the K ride, but I've got a Bos Flat and it's my favorite cymbal. Incredible stick definition and a wash that just floats along under the sticks. It simply does not swell beyond that one point and never overpowers the sticks. Not at all pingy, but I'd expect the K to be a bit more so. -DB

 

[jrfrond]

I am not necessarily a purist, so I suggest using your Diril ride with a strategically-placed piece of gaffer's tape on the underside to squelch some of the wash. It worked for Buddy!

 

[jdc]

i am a big fan of flat rides, k's especially, i have a number of them. for what you are looking for, i would suggest a 20" k custom flat or a bosphorus traditional 20" flat. the k constantinople isn't really a good fit for what you're after, the con style hammering and soft surface make it a really quite cymbal. the k custom is pretty fantastic.

 

[BennyK]

Hi Frank. If I was shopping around for a "choir" ride,a cymbal with more definition than wash is what I'd be on the lookout for.
I've owned a few flats and most were on the quieter side.The two that stand out for me are : an 18" Tosco flat ride (stolen) and an 18" A Zildjian medium heavy.There's a UFIP BIONIC SERIES 18" ride at Steves Music here in Ottawa. Its been there for at least 8-10 years. I like it but never have the cash when I'm there. Last time I looked the price had dropped to like 75 bucks.Good definition with a touch of clang in the wash. Good luck. Benny K.

 

[elcid]

I am a fan of flat rides and have had a older Paiste 18", which I should have kept, a 20" Bosphorus Master series and now use a 21" Bosphorus Turk series.
They seem to suit my acoustic jazz settings and have great stick definition with little if any wash and provide a shimmering, slivery set of dark undertones that I like. Most flat rides have these characteristics but would differ in tonal quality, obviously. I would think that they would indeed suit your need but just which brand/series would suit your pocket and own ears is not my call. I like the Paiste sig series I have played on but there are many out there to try and fall and love with.

Thanks for the valuable comments!

Am going to check their sites and see what they have to offer and hear related soundclips (if available).
Unfortunately no music store around my vecinity carries flat top rides, so checking them out live is out of the question...

-elcid

 

[elcid]

Flats are nice and mellow with outstanding stick definition (but not pingy). Universally they're lower-volume cymbals and should suit your needs. I saw the Roy Haynes Quintet in 2005 and he plays a K 20" flat as his main ride. It drove the band but never overpowered.

That's what am talking about--thanks for posting!...

-elcid

 

[elcid]

I too was going to point you to Bosphorus, Frank. Go flat if you think you won't miss the bell, but I use my bell. Bosphorus bells in general are well-integrated and not that cutting, for instance my New Orleans ride works great in a setting like you describe because it's a little dry, with just enough wash, gets out of the way when I want it to, and the bell isn't cutting. I'd highly recommend one of those.

Thanks for posting!

You know, thus far have encountered very little music material in them church songs which would require use of a cymbal's bell...but if ever does can always avail use of such from the Zil 20" A pie I also lug along, so it isn't a real issue. However, your endorsement/recommendation of Bosphorous cymbals have my curiosity highly piqued!...

-elcid

 

[elcid]

Can't comment on the K ride, but I've got a Bos Flat and it's my favorite cymbal. Incredible stick definition and a wash that just floats along under the sticks. It simply does not swell beyond that one point and never overpowers the sticks. Not at all pingy, but I'd expect the K to be a bit more so. -DB

That sounds (non pun!) like something I should be checking out! Man, how many of you are Bosphorous fans? Thanks for commenting!...

-elcid

 

[elcid]

I am not necessarily a purist, so I suggest using your Diril ride with a strategically-placed piece of gaffer's tape on the underside to squelch some of the wash. It worked for Buddy!

...JR...you are 'daman! Wow, why I din't think of that? Am definitely going to give it a try!...

-elcid

 

[Pounder]

I like JR's suggestion the best. I would also point out that a K flat ride is going to be on the upper-end of prices when it comes to buying a flat ride. THere are many less-expensive alternatives that would be suitable and probably sound better--unless you're playing jazz in your church.

 

[elcid]

i am a big fan of flat rides, k's especially, i have a number of them. for what you are looking for, i would suggest a 20" k custom flat or a bosphorus traditional 20" flat. the k constantinople isn't really a good fit for what you're after, the con style hammering and soft surface make it a really quite cymbal. the k custom is pretty fantastic.

Hey, thanks for the vote for a flat Zil pie! Yet you also suggest Bosphorous flat rides; ummm...interesting, very interesting...

-elcid

 

[elcid]

Hi Frank. If I was shopping around for a "choir" ride, a cymbal with more definition than wash is what I'd be on the lookout for.
I've owned a few flats and most were on the quieter side. The two that stand out for me are: an 18" Tosco flat ride (stolen) and an 18" A Zildjian medium heavy. There's a UFIP BIONIC SERIES 18" ride at Steves Music here in Ottawa. Its been there for at least 8-10 years. I like it but never have the cash when I'm there. Last time I looked the price had dropped to like 75 bucks. Good definition with a touch of clang in the wash. Good luck. Benny K.

Hi, Benny!

Yep...that's about what I am after; good stick definition and subdued "wash."

Am not familiar with the UFIP BIONIC stuff; where can I find information about it?...

-elcid

 

[elcid]

I like JR's suggestion the best. I would also point out that a K flat ride is going to be on the upper-end of prices when it comes to buying a flat ride. THere are many less-expensive alternatives that would be suitable and probably sound better--unless you're playing jazz in your church.

That's exactly what I am going to do to my Diril for the 9 AM service on Thanksgiving Day!
Hope it works--if it does to my satisfaction than wouldn't have buy yet another cymbal (well, not another ride anyway; a cool sounding 17" crash would be nice, tho )!
By the way...the 20" K flat top pie am sort of interested in runs about $200 (used); is that a decent price?

Played with the Paiste 202 (or it 2002? Can't remember; it dates from the '60s) once again and like the way it sounds from the choir stuff (no jazz, tho! ) I recorded this morning...yet still need to explore the field further...

-elcid

 

[lossforgain]

I'd say $200 used isn't a bad deal, it's fair, if you love the cymbal. Have you played it?

I'm expecting another Bosphorus cymbal this week and can give you a review -- I really think that's what you're looking for. You should go over to Cymbals Only and listen to some soundfiles to see what you discover.

 

[elcid]

I'd say $200 used isn't a bad deal, it's fair, if you love the cymbal. Have you played it?

I'm expecting another Bosphorus cymbal this week and can give you a review -- I really think that's what you're looking for. You should go over to Cymbals Only and listen to some soundfiles to see what you discover.

No...haven't heard it since seller doesn't live nearby; huge disadvantage, methinks. In fact, haven't heard back from him either, so the whole affair might be a moot point anyway.

Heard a few Bosphorous flat ride soundfiles; most interesting! Thanks for the link...

-elcid

 

[atomicmorganic]

I have a 22" Sabian Ed Thigpen crystal ride that I like quite a bit. I think it would work in your situation. When I need bell I just play up by the hole. Works in a pinch.