Open resonant toms annoyed the soundman.

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hector48

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I spent a lot of time trying to get a nice open tom sound on my drum kit.
Evans G2, tuned with a tune-bot, no muffling.
Sounded great in my studio.

I played an outdoor gig a few weeks back, and during soundcheck the sound guy said he couldn't get the ringing out of my 12" rack and 14" floor tom.
I ended up taping the heck out of those toms to make them sound dead again.
So much for my resonant tom quest.

This sound guy is supposedly a true pro, and has done sound for some major acts.
Could the issue be that I tuned my drums in a controlled studio, and then went to an outdoor setting?
Are my drums really too resonant, or is the sound guy simply not that good?
I do feel that the sound guy simply focused too much on the resonance of each tom, individually, during sound check.
And I used to think that maybe they resonate too much as well, but most of that gets buried in the mix when the whole band is playing.

I hate all this ugly gaffers tape on my toms, but now I'm reluctant to take it off again.
And it feels like I'm playing on a cardboard box, like my kit from the 80's.
 
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Live, acoustic, indoors, sitting behind the kit

vs

Live, miced, outdoors, from the audience


Two different settings. Two different sounds.


That being said, it is always best to tune to that maximum resonance. You can always muffle but you can never add more in a soundcheck setting.
Did you have your monitor/headphones on so you could hear what they were hearing? That could open up your opinion as to where the soundguy was going and doing with your sound and the problems he was having.
 
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Were they sustaining too long (in his opinion) or were they ringing constantly due to sympathetic vibration? If every time you played the kick, that set the floor tom and rack tom off, that's a major annoyance for a sound guy. Did you re-tune rather than muffle?
 
I would personally take all the tape off my drums while I have them at home and enjoy them the way they're tuned. Then grab some moongels or something along those lines and put them in your trap case for next time. When I've played outdoors it's usually the kick that's an issue, but I have been asked if I have any tom muffling. One moongel on the tom and the problem was solved.
 
hector48 said:
I spent a lot of time trying to get a nice open tom sound on my drum kit.
Evans G2, tuned with a tune-bot, no muffling.
Sounded great in my studio.

I played an outdoor gig a few weeks back, and during soundcheck the sound guy said he couldn't get the ringing out of my 12" rack and 14" floor tom.
I ended up taping the heck out of those toms to make them sound dead again.
So much for my resonant tom quest.

This sound guy is supposedly a true pro, and has done sound for some major acts.
Could the issue be that I tuned my drums in a controlled studio, and then went to an outdoor setting?
Are my drums really too resonant, or is the sound guy simply not that good?
I do feel that the sound guy simply focused too much on the resonance of each tom, individually, during sound check.
And I used to think that maybe they resonate too much as well, but most of that gets buried in the mix when the whole band is playing.

I hate all this ugly gaffers tape on my toms, but now I'm reluctant to take it off again.
And it feels like I'm playing on a cardboard box, like my kit from the 80's.
Click to expand...
Sh*tty soundman.
 
In my experience, the sound guy wants to make you sound good, because if the mix is good, then the sound man sounds good. I’ve been asked to muffle at most outdoor gigs and always bring some gels with me as it seems a common occurrence in outdoor gigs. When everything gets isolated way out front sometimes the only thing making it out there is what is poured into the mics.
I’ve had the same thing happen in the studio when the booth is small and lots of resonance means sound bouncing around in a small box.
One session was done with the drums in a large controlled space in the center of the studio with high ceilings and required very little muffling (maybe one gel on my floor tom).
But my takeaway is make the sound guy happy, because he can be your best friend at the gig, or your worst enemy. LOL
 
It was the resonance when I hit the drum, not sympathetic.
I did have 2 moongels. One for each tom, but it wasn't enough.
And that's when I went to the ugly gaffers tape.
But next time, I'll simply carry more gels, and them remove them after the show.

We are using this same guy at some future shows, at a different venue, and probably a different drum kit.
That will probably give me a better idea on the abilities of this sound guy.
But yeah, either way, I won't argue with him directly, or he'll turn up the "suck knob" on the mixer :)
 
hector48 said:
It was the resonance when I hit the drum, not sympathetic.
I did have 2 moongels. One for each tom, but it wasn't enough.
And that's when I went to the ugly gaffers tape.
But next time, I'll simply carry more gels, and them remove them after the show.

We are using this same guy at some future shows, at a different venue, and probably a different drum kit.
That will probably give me a better idea on the abilities of this sound guy.
But yeah, either way, I won't argue with him directly, or he'll turn up the "suck knob" on the mixer :)
Click to expand...


Haha! And NOBODY wants the suck knob turned up! it's tough enough on a good day sometimes without having to compete with that! Good luck on the next gig!
 
Even worse, he can have you sounding amazing! Then drop your volume to everything but the monitors, so it’s all guitar out front.
 
Sometimes sound folk want to inflict their "flavor profile" on every drum set regardless. Well since you are on good terms and will be working together, see if he'd like to sit behind the kit for a minute and hear it the way you do. Maybe then you guys can figure out a happy compromise.
 
JazzDrumGuy said:
Tune for the gig/venue. I've been there many times before where my drums are tuned perfectly at the home or studio and then I show up and they sound awful. Especially outdoors......keep your chin up.
Click to expand...
Agree 100% - every room, every setting affects how our drums and their tuning sounds. Sometimes subtlety - sometimes dramatically.
 
So how did it sound to your band mates and audience?

I guess that's the best way to tell if he helped or hurt you.
 
hector48 said:
I spent a lot of time trying to get a nice open tom sound on my drum kit.
Evans G2, tuned with a tune-bot, no muffling.
Sounded great in my studio.

I played an outdoor gig a few weeks back, and during soundcheck the sound guy said he couldn't get the ringing out of my 12" rack and 14" floor tom.
I ended up taping the heck out of those toms to make them sound dead again.
So much for my resonant tom quest.

This sound guy is supposedly a true pro, and has done sound for some major acts.
Could the issue be that I tuned my drums in a controlled studio, and then went to an outdoor setting?
Are my drums really too resonant, or is the sound guy simply not that good?
I do feel that the sound guy simply focused too much on the resonance of each tom, individually, during sound check.
And I used to think that maybe they resonate too much as well, but most of that gets buried in the mix when the whole band is playing.

I hate all this ugly gaffers tape on my toms, but now I'm reluctant to take it off again.
And it feels like I'm playing on a cardboard box, like my kit from the 80's.
Click to expand...
Outdoor is a total opposite end of the spectrum from your "controlled" area. Lotta sound guys are also lazy and treat your desired tuning as if it were 'their' drums. Most have 'their' signature 'sound' that they prefer. Most of which I thought was crap. Ultimately, what the audience hears goes through them. So work with that. On my last two European tours my sister was the band's soundmeister. For someone who started as my roadie, she had quite a few regular clients behind her from tuning their pianos by ear. She knows acoustics well. Lucy got us absolute perfection for over two years. The FOH guys at the Royal Albert were amazed. That band comprised of a Harpist (no guitar or bass needed), Pianist, Violinist, Soprano & Sopranino Sax/Flutist, two Vocalists and I the drummer/percussionist. I remember a few times where I refused to settle for their decision at the FOH. I was told the same thing, but I went to the FOH and listened to what I thought was a great kit sound. And everybody else at the soundcheck agreed. The FOH guys still disagreed. My band threatened to walk as we'd already got paid. Yup, there's a huge difference. After the last fiasco, I reverted to giving them my mix at the kit, the rest was up to them.
 
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I think some folks fail to differentiate between resonance and sustain. Yes, maximum resonance is nearly always desirable. But maximum sustain rarely is.

I suspect that the OP's sandman had no problem with his toms resonance, but by how long they sustained - and how loud that sustain was compared to the drum's initial burst of sound.

Typically I think the ideal is a distinct attack leading a burst of full bodied, rich sound that then fairly quickly tapers down to a much softer after-ring.

BOOOoommmmmmmmmmm

rather than...

BOOOOOOMMmmmmmmm

A tom ringing loudly - compared to it's attack - is not the sort of resonant "glue" that folks talk about as a good thing - it is just a low sustained note that just rings out over all of the other notes that follow it. With the drum tuned with a nice attack to sustain volume difference - and the after-ring is still muddying up the mix - then gates or limiters can be used to clean things up a bit. But they have cons that come with their use. Which is why it is so often far better to get a workable sound at the source - the drum itself - than to try and fix it electronically.

But if a tom is simply sustaining too loudly compared to the attack, it can be difficult to impossible to use gates or limiters to fix the problem.

So IMO it is good sound guys, that try enlist our help in making this work. IMO it is the "sh*tty" ones, that just try and slap a gate on each tom because it is quicker....

.... or because they are just burnt out from having to argue with drummers endlessly about it. :)
 
Polska said:
I would personally take all the tape off my drums while I have them at home and enjoy them the way they're tuned. Then grab some moongels or something along those lines and put them in your trap case for next time. When I've played outdoors it's usually the kick that's an issue, but I have been asked if I have any tom muffling. One moongel on the tom and the problem was solved.
Click to expand...
^^^This^^^
 
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