Sabian HH ID

[jazzerprm]

Hi all. I just picked this 16 up for a really good price. Can any Sabian experts confirm which model it is? I think that its an older HH? Cheers in advance...

 

[dtk]

I can't...any idea on weight?
it looks like its got a brilliant finish

I have a few Sabian HH's. Love 'em. Good catch what ever it is.

 

[jazzerprm]

Cheers dtk. Yep, its a brilliant finish, appears to be a medium thin weight (no chance to weigh yet, only received it at work today). Attached is another photo, which will hopefully show the hammering.

 

[ThomFloor]

Its not that old, because the Sabian label is on the large side, which makes it 90's or later. (80's have much smaller ink label).
Brilliant is not so common a finish in the HH line. If its an HH, the inside cup should be signed by a cymbalsmith, which I do not see on yours.
Don't forget AA's can also have hammer marks.

 

[jazzerprm]

Its not that old, because the Sabian label is on the large side, which makes it 90's or later. (80's have much smaller ink label).
Brilliant is not so common a finish in the HH line. If its an HH, the inside cup should be signed by a cymbalsmith, which I do not see on yours.
Don't forget AA's can also have hammer marks.

Indeed, Ive had AAXs in the past but these hammer marks look not to be so uniform. As to HHs being signed - Im not sure on this. I had a China that wasnt and also have an Artisan Light which only has the number (#....). My Artisan Elite hats are signed though. This crash was a bargain, so Im not too fussed on the model at the end of the day - I just need a good small crash and this looks to fit the bill.

 

[jtpaistegeist]

To me, looks like a 90's era HH Medium-Thin, or Thin Crash. The bell would be larger if it were the Rock or heavier models.

 

[jazzerprm]

To me, looks like a 90's era HH Medium-Thin, or Thin Crash. The bell would be larger if it were the Rock or heavier models.

My thoughts exactly, I think that its a MT HH.

 

[zenstat]

Its not that old, because the Sabian label is on the large side, which makes it 90's or later. (80's have much smaller ink label).
Brilliant is not so common a finish in the HH line. If its an HH, the inside cup should be signed by a cymbalsmith, which I do not see on yours.
Don't forget AA's can also have hammer marks.

It does look like HH hammering to me, and there are brilliant finish HH cymbals like that one. I wouldn't rule out HH just because it is Brilliant. I wouldn't rule out HH on the basis of no ink under the bell either, because it can get cleaned away easily enough. The HH hammering is irregular hammering although it can be fairly sparse. The AA hammering is concentric ring style. My hammering page covers the differences and my terminology

http://black.net.nz/avedis/hammering.html

although it is Zildjian oriented in pictorial examples. On my page covering the North American Ks, you can see the context (and continuity) of ink and hammering styles across the Canadian Ks and the early Sabian HH series including a sparsely hammered 16" Thin Crash with a smaller bell:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/NAK.html

I've been working on bell size and shape on different A Zildjian models for some time, but I haven't delved into documenting the same thing in Sabian. I do not call myself a Sabian expert. Just a student cymbals and of good research methods.

Here is some 2013 reading with examples of ink and hammering back in 2013. This also includes a picture of the "signature" although since 2015 we know it is the company name not an individual cymbalsmith (see below).

http://www.drumforum.org/index.php?/topic/91033-early-sabian/

Since 2015 we have also got good evidence that the "signature of the cymbalsmith" is not a signature. It is the company name. It says SABIAN in Armenian script.

Thanks to bongomania for persisting, despite some unpleasantness when people did not like being asked for references. This is the whole thread which does also have some useful ink and hammering info circa 2015:

http://www.drumforum.org/index.php?/topic/114722-age-of-this-older-sabian-hh/?p=1273320

Using the company name under the bell is following a long established Turkish tradition which began with old Ks (K Zildjian Istanbul and the earlier Turkish made K Zildjian Constantinople cymbals) and was continued by A Zildjian from 1929 through the mid 40s (Pre Trans Stamps mostly and just a few of the earliest Trans Stamps).

There still isn't a proper consensus timeline for Sabian, but we make little improvements to the evidence we have now and then. One of the many things we haven't got is a list of the series which have the company name written under the bell. HH yes, AA no, but that just touches the surface. I also know there are at least 6 in periods for the HH line but I've never even finished documenting them all. As has been mentioned by others, the LARGE ink logos on yours suggest they aren't that early. I can't put accurate years on yet, but 90s feels cromulent. Hope this helps.

 

[jazzerprm]

Its not that old, because the Sabian label is on the large side, which makes it 90's or later. (80's have much smaller ink label).
Brilliant is not so common a finish in the HH line. If its an HH, the inside cup should be signed by a cymbalsmith, which I do not see on yours.
Don't forget AA's can also have hammer marks.

It does look like HH hammering to me, and there are brilliant finish HH cymbals like that one. I wouldn't rule out HH just because it is Brilliant. I wouldn't rule out HH on the basis of no ink under the bell either, because it can get cleaned away easily enough. The HH hammering is irregular hammering although it can be fairly sparse. The AA hammering is concentric ring style. My hammering page covers the differences and my terminology

http://black.net.nz/avedis/hammering.html

although it is Zildjian oriented in pictorial examples. On my page covering the North American Ks, you can see the context (and continuity) of ink and hammering styles across the Canadian Ks and the early Sabian HH series including a sparsely hammered 16" Thin Crash with a smaller bell:

http://black.net.nz/avedis/NAK.html

I've been working on bell size and shape on different A Zildjian models for some time, but I haven't delved into documenting the same thing in Sabian. I do not call myself a Sabian expert. Just a student cymbals and of good research methods.

Here is some 2013 reading with examples of ink and hammering back in 2013. This also includes a picture of the "signature" although since 2015 we know it is the company name not an individual cymbalsmith (see below).

http://www.drumforum.org/index.php?/topic/91033-early-sabian/

Since 2015 we have also got good evidence that the "signature of the cymbalsmith" is not a signature. It is the company name. It says SABIAN in Armenian script.

Thanks to bongomania for persisting, despite some unpleasantness when people did not like being asked for references. This is the whole thread which does also have some useful ink and hammering info circa 2015:

http://www.drumforum.org/index.php?/topic/114722-age-of-this-older-sabian-hh/?p=1273320

Using the company name under the bell is following a long established Turkish tradition which began with old Ks (K Zildjian Istanbul and the earlier Turkish made K Zildjian Constantinople cymbals) and was continued by A Zildjian from 1929 through the mid 40s (Pre Trans Stamps mostly and just a few of the earliest Trans Stamps).

There still isn't a proper consensus timeline for Sabian, but we make little improvements to the evidence we have now and then. One of the many things we haven't got is a list of the series which have the company name written under the bell. HH yes, AA no, but that just touches the surface. I also know there are at least 6 in periods for the HH line but I've never even finished documenting them all. As has been mentioned by others, the LARGE ink logos on yours suggest they aren't that early. I can't put accurate years on yet, but 90s feels cromulent. Hope this helps.

Zenstat, thanks so much for that, great information. Really appreciate it. Im going with a 90s HH medium thin,.. It sure looks hand hammered to me. Great cymbal. I really dig Sabians these days.

 

[orion]

I have an HH medium thin crash, 17 inch brilliant finish. Looks very similar to the one pictured. For what it's worth mine was bought new in 88 or 89 and has large logo and no ink under the bell.
After looking at it closely at various angles, mine has an HH as part of the logo on the right side of the arcs under the N. They're barely visible now. Also, medium thin is printed on it in fairly large script on the opposite side of the cymbal.