"Potentially" stolen cymbal. Best ways to handle it.

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Tama CW

Tama CW

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Received a message today on Reverb where a member said that a cymbal I'm selling "looks a lot like one that was stolen from them."
They asked me "where did it come from?" First time this has ever happened to me selling anything over the past 50 yrs. Now on the flip side,
I've been scammed half a dozen times on items I've sent out to buyers (in the old days) where they disappeared with the item and the payment bounced.

I told the member that I had purchased them from a major EBay retailer. Nothing else provided by me (yet). I'd like them to give me their details first.
So I asked them if they had any old photo's? When and where where they stolen? Any other specifics? Where did they get them?....as there might be photos of that original purchases.
It's not a common cymbal so not a lot of them running around. Still, you find one almost any week of the year by looking on EBay or Reverb. I could ask them if there is a police report (or evidence)
on the cymbal or anything else that was taken at the same time.

If their answers fit a scenario where they could have been purchased by my EBay seller.....then I'll take it back to that seller and see what shakes out.
At a minimum they would have a potential stream of stolen goods coming to their business from that source. Who would want that?

Would be curious as to comments from others who have been through this before or just have good scholarly/legal advice to offer.
There's nothing to stop people from thinking that a cymbal looks "like theirs"......yet be mistaken. It's hard to 100% ID a specific cymbal unless it had a specific and
unusual toning pattern, a specific die stamp, recorded weights, or a very specific flaw (dent, crack, etc.).
 
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Hmm...interesting. I would put the ball in their court, they should provide prove that its the same cymbal; serial number, any special markings, etc. Vet the situation, or ignore and enjoy a whisky. I have a 22" medium Zildjian constantinople that has a very unique stain on it (shot of Jager spilled on it), and I know the exact spot (to the left of the bell). That being said, most of my other cymbals don't have anything unique about them...another good argument for engraving serial numbers.
 
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Tama CW said:
Received a message today on Reverb where a member said that a cymbal I'm selling "looks a lot like one that was stolen from them."
They asked me "where did they come from?" First time this has ever happened to me selling anything over the past 50 yrs. Now on the flip side,
I've been scammed half a dozen times on items I've sent out to buyers (in the old days) where they disappeared with the item and the payment bounced.

I told the member that I had purchased them from a major EBay retailer. Nothing else provided by me (yet). I'd like them to give me their details first.
So I asked them if they had any old photo's? When and where where they stolen? Any other specifics? Where did they get them?....as there might be photos of that original purchases.
It's not a common cymbal so not a lot of them running around. Still, you find one almost any week of the year by looking on EBay or Reverb. I could ask them if there is a police report (or evidence)
on the cymbal or anything else that was taken at the same time.

If their answers fit a scenario where they could have been purchased by my EBay seller.....then I'll take it back to that seller and see what shakes out.
At a minimum they would have a potential stream of stolen goods coming to their business from that source. Who would want that?

Would be curious as to comments from others who have been through this before or just have good scholarly/legal advice to offer.
There's nothing to stop people from thinking that a cymbal looks "like theirs"......yet be mistaken. It's hard to 100% ID a specific cymbal unless it had a specific and
unusual toning pattern, a specific die stamp, recorded weights, or a very specific flaw (dent, crack, etc.).
Click to expand...
Paiste or Zildjian?
Paiste's have had serial numbers going back to the spring of 1972.......
That is the easiest way to identify it!
 
50's Zildjian. So no ink. All you can go by in my photos is the die stamps, patina and toning. There are no unusual flaws. Yeah, a Paiste Serial # would be easy.
If that guy has bought them on line there might be photos still in possession of the seller. If it was on Reverb, that history is maintained for years.

I'm not even sure that this guy can tell the several versions of 1950's stamps from say the 60's or 70's. They haven't given me any specifics on "why" they "look like" what they
used to own. Having owned 150 or more vintage Zildjians, I'm not sure there are too many I could positively ID just by photo's. Though I have a good memory and eye
for "patterns" in old collectibles I've once owned.....and often do spot them again out in the wild 10-20 yrs after I sold them. But those kinds of collectibles are a lot more unique imo than
a cymbal. You know I have to wonder if some major sellers, for this very issue, are very sparse in giving details on their items. Hence just a couple photos....no weights or dimensions.
No specific flaws mentioned unless they are gross.

There is one certain characteristic about the cymbal that I would call unusual. And it was one of the first things I noticed about it before buying. We'll see if that's something the other party
is even aware of. My listing is very specific with photos, measurements, stamps, and tiny flaws.....which has made this person an instant "expert" on the cymbal.....if they weren't before.
I do think they have proper intentions....and that this cymbal reminds them of theirs. It's up to us to hash out details to decide if it's really the case.
 
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Tama CW said:
50's Zildjian. So no ink. All you can go by in my photos is the die stamps, patina and toning. There are no unusual flaws. Yeah, a Paiste Serial # would be easy.
If that guy has bought them on line there might be photos still in possession of the seller. If it was on Reverb, that history is maintained for years.

I'm not even sure that this guy can tell the several versions of 1950's stamps from say the 60's or 70's. They haven't given me any specifics on "why" they "look like" what they
used to own. Having owned 150 or more vintage Zildjians, I'm not sure there are too many I could positively ID just by photo's. Though I have a good memory and eye
for "patterns" in old collectibles I've once owned.....and often do spot them again out in the wild 10-20 yrs after I sold them. But those kinds of collectibles are a lot more unique imo than
a cymbal. You know I have to wonder if some sellers, for this very issue, are very sparse in giving details on their items. Hence just a couple photos....no weights or dimensions.
No specific flaws mentioned unless they are gross.
Click to expand...
I get the feeling this guy's claim is more "wishful thinking" than anything else!
"Hey! that looks like a cymbal I used to own a long time ago..........."
 
"Can I see a pic of the cymbals when you owned them?"

might ask of him
 
Tama CW said:
So I asked them if they had any old photo's? When and where where they stolen? Any other specifics? Where did they get them?....as there might be photos of that original purchases.
It's not a common cymbal so not a lot of them running around. Still, you find one almost any week of the year by looking on EBay or Reverb. I could ask them if there is a police report (or evidence)
on the cymbal or anything else that was taken at the same time.
Click to expand...

All of that, definitely. And what else was stolen, and did they recover anything else, and how. Did they ever record the cymbal, or make video of it? I wouldn't give them any information before they give you complete details of the theft.
 
type85 said:
I get the feeling this guy's claim is more "wishful thinking" than anything else!
"Hey! that looks like a cymbal I used to own a long time ago..........."
Click to expand...

Maybe. But eventually, stuff circles around the market. In watching the "for sale" locations for 4 years now, I can't think of a single instance where a cymbal I once owned
made it back into the on line sphere of EBay, Reverb, etc. And some of those cymbals are unique enough that I would recognize them, esp. if the weight were given.
 
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Reverb has been very suspect as of late. Alot of fake listings and just a few days ago someone tried to pull the old “I’ll send you a wire transfer and have someone pick it up.” trick on me.
 
Yeah. If they made a police report and and some kind of proof, then entertain the conversation. Otherwise, it just seems to me that you be out whatever amount you originally paid based solely upon some dude's memory and word.

Seems sketchy.
If it's for real, I would want to get Reverb and/or paypal involved. Also, the police.

Good luck!
 
So far the whole issue doesn't appear to be important enough for the other party to respond. Been 24 hrs and no reply to any of my questions to them.

Later this week I may contact Reverb and the original seller to at least let them know such an inquiry was made to me (leaving identities out). And that it was handled quickly and fairly.
But since the other party is not responding, I can only assume they have lost interest or have no proof to provide.
 
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This just happened to me here on the forum as I detailed in a post a couple of weeks ago. @Patrick responded to my sale post within hours of posting with a claim that the drum I was selling was stolen from him. He was very specific, knew the drum, offered details about purchasing it and the police report filed after that drum and another (which I also had bought with the snare I was selling) were stolen from him. It was an easy call and he was a stand up guy about it. He didn't even expect to get them back.

See my Thread here: https://www.drumforum.org/threads/drums-that-made-it-home-meeting-another-member.198732/

For me there was no denying that I was in possession of his stolen drums. If I were you, I would expect clear proof that the cymbal was stolen from him. He can't expect you to just take him on his word without more specific details.

Good luck...
 
Trilock_Gurtu said:
Hmm...interesting. I would put the ball in their court, they should provide prove that its the same cymbal; serial number, any special markings, etc. Vet the situation, or ignore and enjoy a whisky. I have a 22" medium Zildjian constantinople that has a very unique stain on it (shot of Jager spilled on it), and I know the exact spot (to the left of the bell). That being said, most of my other cymbals don't have anything unique about them...another good argument for engraving serial numbers.
Click to expand...

I agree, the burden of proof is on the person making the accusation (if not an accusation, at least the suggestion). If you bought it from a reputable seller, you have done nothing wrong.
 
It took 4 days but the person finally responded to me earlier questions. Surprisingly, their response had no specifics. No questions answered.

"unfortunately, i didn’t record the weight. It would have been stolen in the last 6 months i think.
thanks for your help. doubt it’s the same one as they made a lot of them."

I could have walked away from that response with a clear conscience. But, again asked them for specifics as why they felt these could be theirs. Figured I was owed that.
But I sort of led the horse to water too. And over the past 90 days there have been at least half a dozen similar cymbals on Reverb. They came back with:

"mine was a Trans stamp. very similar weight and patina......I've been monitoring to see if it came up."

Well, that's at least something. The cymbal was only on EBay for only a couple hours or less before I found it listed incorrectly as a 1960's.
So sent a message to the EBay seller to see if they could help with any details on the buyer, time frame, etc. If they knew the seller and that they
owned them for years, that would end any discussion about being stolen. As a minimum it would at least give them a reason to apply more scrutiny to the same
seller if they come back again. Well...........the reply from the Music Store was very helpful......I will leave out the specific names for their privacy:

Seller:

Thanks for the email. I purchased these cymbals from the family estate of "xxxx yyyyyyyyy", who passed away in March. He was an older chap, according to his wife, he had purchased these cymbals back in the 70’s from a music store in western Pennsylvania. They lived in East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania to be exact.​

I don’t think these are the cymbals that the gentleman in question is talking about, even though they are similar. Don’t forget, the Zildjian factory produced thousands of cymbals throughout the 50’s and 60’s. Thanks.​


I sent that seller's response to my guy.
 
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Last cymbals I had stolen were stolen by US Post Office and sold at auction at the "postal recovery facility" in Atlanta, GA. Saw them being sold on ebay and matched the serial numbers. Messaged the seller because I initially thought he had stolen them, but confirmed he purchased them in a massive mixed bin auction at the post office. If you ever have gear disappear in shipping and it pops up on ebay from a seller in Georgia, there's extremely high odds the post office botched the shipping and auctioned it off.

You should definitely ask this person for details of how their item was "stolen"
 
michiganice91 said:
Last cymbals I had stolen were stolen by US Post Office and sold at auction at the "postal recovery facility" in Atlanta, GA. Saw them being sold on ebay and matched the serial numbers. Messaged the seller because I initially thought he had stolen them, but confirmed he purchased them in a massive mixed bin auction at the post office. If you ever have gear disappear in shipping and it pops up on ebay from a seller in Georgia, there's extremely high odds the post office botched the shipping and auctioned it off.

You should definitely ask this person for details of how their item was "stolen"
Click to expand...

I asked the person a couple times on the who, where, and when on their cymbal being stolen. Basically, no answers other than the "stolen in the last 6 months, I think."
 
My all-time favorite crash cymbal (an 18" A Zildjian thin crash that I bought brand new in 1970) was stolen in early 1972; it's the only cymbal that's ever been stolen from me.

It took me 50 years (and at least nine different 18" Zildjian crash cymbals) to finally find a replacement 18" A Zildjian thin crash that duplicates all of it's sonic qualities.
 
I don't agree with some of the stuff posted. You don't want to be caught in possession of stolen property. The D.A. will want to charge you. When somebody claims "he has my stolen item" a defense to the crime is not, "well, prove that it's stolen!".......nor will a bona fide purchase (a legit purchase without knowledge of the theft) - depending on your state. I can only advise about CA......

I would for sure ask the alleged old owner for a copy of the police report. I would hope 1) they made one and 2) they would provide it. I can see old owner raising "privacy concerns" if they don't want to give out their info, but I'd be suspicious if they didn't give it to you. They could always redact their info.

I would definitely contact your seller and advise them. Let them sort it out directly with the alleged old owner. It shouldn't be your problem. Hold onto the item as evidence and set it aside. Better yet, if the seller offers you a full refund and will pay for s/h back to them, I would do that and get out of what could be a messy situation, then advise the old owner to take it up with the seller directly as you are out of it.

This may be a new scam, so I'm certainly interested in the outcome....btw, that cymbal DOES look familiar...... ;-)
 
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